UNIVERSITY CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
5th Floor of City Hall 6801 Delmar Blvd
May 23, 2016
5:30 p.m.

The City Council Study Session was held in the Council Chamber, 5th floor of City Hall, on Monday, May 23, 2016. Mayor Shelley Welsch called the meeting to order at 5:30 p.m. In addition to the Mayor the following members of the Council were present:

Councilmember Paulette Carr Councilmember Arthur Sharpe, Jr. Councilmember Michael Glickert.
Councilmember Rod Jennings arrived at 5:40 p.m. Councilmember Stephen Kraft and Terry Crow were excused.

Also present was the City Manager Lehman Walker.

Mayor Welsch asked if any members of Council would have any changes to propose on the upcoming agenda. Mr. Walker noted that he was removing the third item under the City Manager’s report.

Mayor Welsch moved on to a discussion of Council Rules and Order of Procedure requested by Councilmembers Glickert and Smotherson.

Councilmember Glickert noted that as of late there have been two situations where the chair had to remove two people from the Chamber. He stated the Chair has the right to remove anyone that he or she thinks is disruptive to the meeting. The question that arises for future purpose is what does Council do in a form of reprimand for such a violation? Councilmember Glickert noted that Council presently does not have anything on the books that would deal with such a violation. He asked for a discussion of when someone is removed should there be a rule as to a result for such a violation, as should they have the right to come back at the next meeting to speak.

Councilmember Carr stated she would err on the side of allowing citizens to speak. She said that if Council becomes so repressive they would mimic an anti-democratic government and discontent would arise.

Councilmember Smotherson agreed with Councilmember Carr and should only be for that one meeting.  He said there should not be any punishment.

Councilmember Glickert stated that he did not see anything with the previous incidents that made Council repressive or fascist. He noted that the Mayor explains the rules at the beginning of each meeting and felt that comments that were made were out of line.

Councilmember Carr stated that she would allow people to say what is on their mind, she looks at them, does not make faces, play with her glasses or look in another direction. They are entitled to their five minutes.  She said that she has not observed anyone that would be a threat.

Mayor Welsch noted that she has been on council for ten years and has never experienced what Council has been dealing with until the last couple of years.  She noted that she is aware

of people who have stopped coming to Council meetings because of the constant attacks from the floor. She said that there was only one time that she actually asked for someone’s removal from the Chamber. Mayor noted that she sets out the rules at the beginning of a meeting of orderly conduct and presentation. She said that no one is saying that someone cannot talk to Council but should be in a respectful fashion and they should honor the five minute deadline. Council has the responsibility to run meetings so that all member of the community feel comfortable in attending. If the same people come back every week with the same attacking persona, it does not help Council to do the business of the community. It also is not in line with the spirit of Roberts’ Rules, and it has nothing to do with what is legitimately First Amendment speech.

Councilmember Carr stated if things became hot two years ago it was because things were brought without much public notice or discussion. She noted that meetings have been flooded with people now, which she never saw before. When people are shown respect, not repressive, not punitive and not autocratic, people will respond.

Mayor Welsch said Councilmember Glickert question was if there should be a punishment and how long should it last for those who violate the rules. She did not feel Council was punitive as there are only three speakers out of many that they would not follow the rule of the chair. The purpose is to maintain the decorum of the Chamber that is doing the business of University City,

Councilmember Smotherson again stated it should only be for the day that the speaker is removed. He said that what was seen in the Chambers is mild to what can be seen on the streets, on Facebook and on the internet.

Councilmember Glickert said that what he has heard from Councilmembers Carr and Smotherson is the speaker should only be removed for the one meeting, which he noted was not an issue with the First Amendment. He felt there was a need to have a line drawn when someone makes personal attacks on people on the dais. He said there should be an understanding among Council of consequences when a person is removed.

Mayor Welsch said that she has only asked one person to be removed so what is being talked about is how willing a speaker is to respect the order of the Chair. Once they are told that personal attacks are not allowed most have changed the way they speak to the Council. She said she has only addressed three speakers; one for going over the time limit and two for personal attacks.

Councilmember Jennings asked to clarify what is suggested, that if a speaker is removed by the Chair for the meeting that speaker can speak at the next meeting but if the personal attacks continue, the speaker will again be removed?

Mayor Welsch said that she was uncomfortable with removal. One of the problems was the speaker continued to speak after being warned of the time expired and that speaker was not removed. She noted that she has only removed one speaker from the Chamber.

Councilmember Jennings stated that Council’s objective should be to maintain order in their meetings. He said the speaker could come back but the Chair has the right to control the meeting.

Councilmember Carr said that you can calm the waters if you just listen to someone. She stated that if the Chair deems the speaker’s behavior as unacceptable that would be the Chair’s prerogative but should not carry into the future. With regards to the Cookie Thornton thing, and wanted everyone to know that the Council was very repressive and very punitive. She noted that she has found that one can calm the situation if one just simply listened.

City Manager Mr. Walker stated he was familiar with the Cookie Thornton’s situation as he dealt with him when he had projects in University City. He said he has talked to Kirkwood’s City Administrator, their Community Development Director and their attorney, and what they maintain led to that situation was the fact that there were never any limits placed on Mr. Thornton’s behavior. Mr. Walker said that Mr. Thornton would come and disrupt the department he was dealing with in respect to inspections and construction permits and went on and on, so it got worse and worse because of no boundaries that sere set.
Mr. Walker had two additional comments:
•	Every legislative body has some rules that people have to abide by.
•	Council should reflect on what is the purpose of the meeting. He did not believe the purpose of the meeting was to have people make personal attacks on people who cannot defend themselves, such as Councilmembers or members of staff. An effective legislator is not determined by whether you have a thick skin but rather what you have accomplished.

Councilmember Carr stated that the Council does have Rules and Procedures and running wild. Her goal is to represent her constituents by listening to them. Someone else may think that starting a new fair or a bunch of committees is an accomplishment. The Council Chambers is filled because people who do not think they are being listened to. Words are not going to harm her but what would harm her would be if someone comes at her physically. That means having a thick skin. She stated that if the Chair deems it necessary for the speaker to sit down or be removed is the Chair’s prerogative and she would comment on it if she disagreed with it, but would not overrule it. She is against a legislative body that is punitive towards constituents. Councilmember Carr said she would find it unfortunate if the Chair kept a list of people that would not be called to speak as she is willing to talk to anyone.

Mayor Welsch said she also would talk to anyone and anyone on that list is free to come and talk to her. She noted that she has been approached by a resident who speaks very harshly in Council sessions and she has been physically intimidated by this resident. Mayor Welsch thought that this happened because of the tenor of some of the Council meetings. She said she listens to her constituents and communicates with them regularly but believed Council meetings were meetings of all the people of University City and people should abide by the rules. She felt if the only negative was to be asked to sit down, they would just come back the next time with the same attacks. Roberts’ Rules state personal attacks should be discouraged and she does not think it was punitive to follow the rules of the assembly.

Councilmember Jennings said the Mayor raised a point that if the same person continues to come back and show the same disrespect and being out of order, what should be done?

Mayor Welsch said that since she started to enforce her opening statement the negative behavior has dropped.

Councilmember Glickert stated that if Council becomes aware of such a pattern they could have another study session on how to handle.

Mayor Welsch asked that in future Study Sessions on Council Rules, Council would consider adding to the where speaker time limit is addressed to also reference that Council supports efforts to discourage personal attacks.

City Manager Walker noted that the Community Development Department deals with more angry people than anyone in City Hall because of code enforcement issues, inspection issues, and permit issues. As head of that department he made it very clear that certain types of behavior were expected. He noted that at one time, people would come and call staff names, try to intimidate staff and threaten staff until he established rules. Since these rules were established that kind of behavior stopped. Mr. Walker said some type of rules is needed, Council can determine what the rules are but some type of rule is needed as to what is acceptable behavior.

Councilmember Smotherson wanted to address Council Rule 24, which stated there would be a 12 month wait to re-submit a resolution if it was disposed of the first time. He said he had several things on his plate that he wanted to address and this could hamper these changes. He said he would like it to go back to the original rule or change the time limit to six months.

Mayor Welsch asked to have time to think about it as she did not know what was to be discussed in particular when it was placed on the agenda. She stated that a Councilmember should not be hesitant to bring something to the agenda, especially if you are working with other members before, to get their feedback. She asked Councilmember Smotherson what other things he wanted to bring before Council to help her understand his concern.

Councilmember Smotherson stated it was just a general discussion he had and he was interested in getting some things changed and wanted to be sure he could affect that more than once a year.

Councilmember Jennings recalled that rule was created because some members stated that the same issue would be brought up at every Council meeting until change was made. This was an effort so Council would not be bogged down with the one issue. He felt climate has changed a little and would consider the six months. Councilmember Jennings stated that if Council is communicating with each other this rule would not be needed.

Councilmember Carr stated this rule was created because she was putting a resolution on that was not voted down but was postponed indefinitely. She stated that Roberts’ Rules does not address disposed of but does note that if voted down it should not be brought back for six months. Councilmember Carr noted that if she is working on something like the streets and I don’t get it right the first time and it is voted down or postponed indefinitely that she could go home and work on changes to it in order to bring it back at the next meeting but cannot as the rules now state. She noted that she would like to follow Roberts’ Rules that if it is voted down that it does not come back in the same form for six months or could find an amendment to bring it back sooner.
Councilmember Carr said that members should be able to work on it until they do get it right and not behind closed doors but at public meetings. If Council expects to show progress, fix the streets, build that police station, this rule needs to be removed.

Councilmember Glickert asked Councilmember Smotherson if he was asking for discussion on Rule 24 as this was the first he knew what was to be discussed and asked that in the future,

Council be given a heads up as to what in particular would be discussed. Councilmember Glickert also suggested Mr. Smotherson lobby his fellow members in order to get things done.

Mayor Welsch said she would like to do a little research on this since she now knows what was being asked to be changed.

Councilmember Carr said she had no problems with six months if it is voted down. She also would like to be able to amend resolution or bill in order to bring it back sooner. She would like the rule rewritten to say that if it is voted down it cannot be brought back in the same form for six months but it could be amended to bring back sooner.

Mayor Welsch stated as Mr. Jennings point was to remember that members can talk to each other outside of these meetings, which is part of the legislative process. If there is something one would like to amend, talk to your colleagues to get feedback.

Councilmember Jennings said a little advance work and collaboration among Council would make a resolution doable the first time it is introduced.

Councilmember Carr said that if even three people meet to work on something it should be announced as Council cannot do the work of the people behind closed doors and spring it on them as in the case of the EMS. A lot of her constituents want to hear what is going on and not have it sprung on them at the meeting.

Mayor Welsch stated that according to the Sunshine Law an official meeting would involve four members of Council. She said that nowhere in the Sunshine Law is Council discouraged from getting to know each other’s concerns and share issues. There is nothing against the law to build relationships outside of the Chamber as well as inside of the Chamber. She stated that all of the discussions that are held outside of the Chamber can also be had inside of the Chamber. Members are not talking behind closed doors but rather working to develop personal relationships helping to do the work of the people better.

Councilmember Jennings said that meeting people one or two at a time does not make it a closed chamber. In addressing Councilmember Carr he said that he was sure that she would be meeting with Mr. Smotherson as a mentor. He said that Council needs to learn how to collaborate and work together.
Councilmember Jennings spoke of the software the University City School District use called BoardDocs for digitalized meetings and live feeds of meetings. He will gather more information on this and come back to the Council to discuss.

Meeting was adjourned at 6:25 p.m. Joyce Pumm, City Clerk, MRCC/CMC